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New Suits from an Old Swimmer

Posted by Glenn Mills on Feb 17, 2006 09:14AM (8,147 views)

A long time ago, in a land not so far away, the belief in swimming was that the SMALLER the suit, the better the performance. Many of us have horror stories of size-26 paper suits, and wanting to swim fast just to get OUT of those stupid things.

DESCRIBE THE IMAGE As times change, fortunately, so does technology.

Now, I know these suits have been around for a while, so there's probably nothing too new here, but seeing that they represent a pretty significant investment, I figured it'd be good to see if they're REALLY worth it. So, I made a phone call to a friend of mine at TYR, and asked if I could try a few of their suits. Why TYR -- since there are so many manufacturers of these cool new suits? OK, I'll admit it, I'm a huge fan of Olympian's Steve and Bruce Furniss, and Steve founded TYR. Are they that much better than the other suits? I dunno, I only have so much money to spend on these things, and as you'll see, this isn't a cheap comparison...so let's get started.

First, I wanted to do a fairly scientific test, and the more I thought about it, the more I realized that it would be virtually impossible for me to do that. See, I've been swimming again for a few months, and each week brings some new things...the ability to go a bit faster, keep moving a bit longer, all that good stuff that comes with getting back in shape. I have been making such rapid gains in the pool (gains are big when you come from where I was at!), that whichever suit was the last one, would certainly be the winner. So, in a very NON-scientific way, I figured I'd do a CRASH run...try all the suits in about 30 minutes, and see how I held up.

Since different suits are recommended for different styles of swimming, I figured I'd go 4 x 25 fast on the :30 -- or as close to it as possible because my timer and recorder had to scramble at times to get all the info. And Lord knows, I didn't want to have to do things TWICE. So, it's ALMOST a controlled test, but...uh...not really.

The toughest part of the test WASN'T going all those 25s. It was scrambling as fast as possible to get in to and out of the suits. I'd finish the fourth 25, climb out of the pool, and do a controlled speed-walk to the locker room, where I'd turn into a contortionist. These suits are hard enough to put on when you're dry. When you're wet, the process feels a lot like playing Twister. I'd come running back out of the locker room SWEATING from hiking up those full-body suits. I'd run over to my friend and meekly ask..."can you zip me, please?"  HONESTLY...THAT'S THE FIRST TIME I'VE EVER ASKED THAT!!!

DESCRIBE THE IMAGE The big decision on the suits was what order to try them in. I figured I'd start with my control -- the standard nylon baggy suit I wear every day. We'll just call all those numbers "n," so some people won't think I wrote this just so I could post my times, and so others won't write in and say...MAN are you SLOW! From that point, I figured I'd try the more inexpensive suits first, leaving the high-ticket suits for when fatigue set in. You can see the fatigue in each set as the fly was faster than the free in all except the final set. But hey, if you want $300+ for a suit, it better allow me to swim fast when I CAN'T! :) Finally, I can honestly say that I tried to maintain a consistent level of effort throughout the set. While this can never be accurately portrayed in a test so short, and I'm sure the excitement of having a full body, Mr. Incredible-type suit on, helped me swim a bit faster. Doesn't that all come in to play when measuring performance?

DESCRIBE THE IMAGESuit #1 - Aqua Shift: Jammer - $130

This is a pretty standard suit, covering the thighs from hips to knees. As I jumped in, it felt good, nothing too special. This is a popular suit because it creates the least amount of restriction (and it's the least expensive suit). This is the suit I thought I'd like the best. I thought it would allow me to swim like I normally do, and not get so much in my way. Especially for breaststroke, I figured it would help reduce the friction of my leg recovery, and still allow me to feel the bottom half of my legs for the power phase.

Just as I expected, my butterfly was a bit faster in the jammer than in the control suit. Surprisingly, the most improvement came in breaststroke. This suit would, without a doubt, require a shave down on most of the body, which gets tougher and tougher as you get older. It didn't feel a whole lot different, and it allowed each stroke to feel very familiar. Would I spend $130 for a quick 5% improvement in time? Without a doubt.

DESCRIBE THE IMAGESuit #2 - Aqua Shift: Tight - $160.00
 Long pants in swimming? It was a bit of a chore to put these on when wet (it's just like putting on panty hose, someone said). It's best if you dry off a bit, and roll up the pants so you can get your feet as close to the end as possible, then uncoil the pants over your legs, pulling up the material, and making sure there are no gathers, or bunches along the way.

To make sure that I got the full effect, I waited until about 5 seconds before the sendoff to drop into the water. This made it more like a race situation in that the previous set served as a 2nd warm-up, and I was going into a new race. The second I dropped in, I felt the pants were really cool. I had an initial feeling of my legs being really long and slender (immediately I couldn't wait to see how the FULL body suit felt).

While the fly may not look like it shows much improvement, what I felt IMMEDIATELY upon push off, was the ability to dolphin better than I ever had before. I was really impressed with how the suit made me aware of what my legs were doing. I kinda figured it would hide them, but it did the opposite. The pants made me REALLY aware of how to use my legs better than I ever had. It becomes MUCH more evident on the backstroke. When you flip a breaststroker over onto his back, it's pretty much the same as what happens to a turtle. But with the ability to dolphin, I actually made a pretty significant drop right away.

I really liked the pants, and felt that I could swim everything the way I was used to, and improved all the times again. While I've heard people talk about these suits in reference to breaststroke, I figured it would be harder for me to kick. It wasn't. I had no problem with the kick and, again, with the underwater dolphin kick now an integral part of the stroke, I really felt like I could get more out of it with the awareness of my legs.

So, 7.5% improvement for $160. I think the real benefits will come the farther you swim in it. I can honestly say, if I could afford it, I would train in these. I love the way they made me feel leaving the walls. Watching all the GREAT swimmers for years, and seeing the way they move off the wall, I honestly felt like I was doing what I see them do. Of course, we all know that feeling it, and doing it are two totally different things. But ya gotta start somewhere.

DESCRIBE THE IMAGESuit #3 - Aqua Shift: Male Zipperback Short John - $220.00
 OK, here we go. I was going to put on the suit that I thought looked like something Johnny Weissmuller wore. I know, the technology is totally different, but the need to ask another swimmer, or friend, to ZIP ME still had me feeling a bit off my game. I DID, however, like the black color, and the suit felt SO tight that I FELT slimmer. I was already wondering if anyone would notice if I kept this on ALL day under my clothes.

I put on the suit, wrestled it up my body, and snuck back on deck looking for an inconspicuous place to get zipped. My Masters friends just HAPPENED to be in a kick set when i walked out and I was greeted to jeers and laughs at my new get up. Mental note: Wear this suit only when OTHER people are also wearing suits like this. Ya kinda stand out if you wear this for everyday training.

I dropped in prior to the send off, and REALLY felt good. Just slipped in, and it was almost like I wanted to pop up again. I liked it already. As I took off on my first 25 of fly, I noticed a bit of constriction on my extension. I didn't feel all that good -- didn't feel the flow of the legs. When I looked at the time later, I was surprised simply because, overall, I think this one felt the worst overall for fly...at least for me. I think this suit tested the best simply because it's a really good suit, and I wasn't so tired yet.

Backstroke felt really good during the swim part, and the feeling of restriction was gone. I guess now I started to realize that I felt like I was shaved down on my chest and back. While it did give me some restriction on fly, it felt GREAT on backstroke. I didn't get that great feeling of the dolphin kick on the pushoff, but the swimming part was wonderful.

Breaststroke actually felt pretty good. I think the combination of feeling shaved down on the chest and stomach, plus the jammer length, held the kick a bit narrower. This allowed me to kick a bit harder without fear of ripping apart my groin (a common old-guy breaststroke trouble spot). I was starting to get used to this suit, and I didn't feel the constriction like I did on fly. I liked it for breaststroke.

Freestyle really felt GREAT. I was really amazed at how high I felt in the water, and how easy it was to put more power into the FORWARD pull, rather than trying to lift up to get a breath. This is a great suit in the water. On deck, it has earned the worldwide nickname of "Gut Buster" for its ability to make Masters swimmers look slimmer. Like I said, it does work for more than just swimming, and after 6 days of wear under your clothes, only THEN does it begin to really chafe. The compliments FAR outweigh any discomfort.

So, improvement ranging from 6% to 12% depending on stroke, and an overall improvement of 10% for $220? Man, it's a bargain.

DESCRIBE THE IMAGESuit #4 - Aqua Shift: Male Zipperback Full Body - $380.00 (Uranium)
 It's MR. INCREDIBLE (referring to the Pixar movie). The 5th and final round turned out to be the toughest by far. I was getting tired from sprinting for sure, but the costume changes were getting exhausting. This suit proved to be the TOUGHEST by far to get on. I know it would have been far better to be dry, shaved, and NOT so tired, but I had to get this thing on quickly. I was initially worried that I'd take too long and get too much rest. HA. This thing proved so tough to put on that I was sweating as I finally got it on far enough to head back out to the "zipping station."

My fatigue was quickly proven in the fly. Not only was I tired, but also that restrictive feeling was back. I didn't feel like I was getting everything out of the stroke, but I did have that great feeling of being able to dolphin off the wall again. It seemed the long pants really work with me to help me feel what my legs are doing, and allow me to get more out of my legs. While the time on fly was slower, I think working on the underwater portion without being so tired may prove to be the fastest of the bunch in anything other than a 25.

Back felt great again, and I guess I started to get used to the suit by breaststroke and was able to go my fastest 25 of the day. Trust me, this was no easy feat, as I was getting pretty tired by this point.

Finally, the freestyle. MAN...I liked THIS suit. From the top to the bottom, I felt great. I felt like I was completely shaved down, my body felt high, and my arms were being used ONLY to send me forward. Of all the suits and all the 25s, this combo of suit and stroke yielded the largest improvement of any 25. Almost 15% on one length. Call it what you will -- my last length, Sammy Save Up, Sandbagger -- whatever. This is a cool suit. Regardless of how long it took me to put it on, no matter how embarrassing it was to be falling around in the locker room, I really liked it.

From what I can see on TYR's website (and I think they may have updated this suit to only come in a new material) this suit is listing at $380.00. OUCH. I'm thinking, $380 for a suit I can wear only a few times in meets, and is only a TOUCH faster than the Zipperback Short John...is it just too much?

I guess it all depends on what event you're swimming. If I were a freestyler or backstroker, without a doubt, I'd buy this suit. While the numbers may not play out the way you'd think, I really felt SO much better in this suit, plus it carries the ability to really help you in the underwater dolphins. In anything above a 25, this could be more significant. For fly, in my opinion, it's going to depend on how much of the underwater dolphin you use. I don't see a lot of the great swimmers using this type of suit for fly, but for more novice or Masters swimmers, it could still end up being beneficial. For breaststroke, I didn't feel the restriction I did in fly, and I got a good feeling of being shaved down all over. Again, while this suit may not usually be recommended for breaststroke...I liked it.

DESCRIBE THE IMAGESo, after my Big Test, what suit would I get?
It would depend on the events I planned on swimming. For me, from a feeling standpoint, I loved the long pants. Even though the times indicate the Zipperback Jammer is the best bargain for the performance, I just felt better in the long pants. I think that in the long run, for swims longer than a 25, and for my specific events, the pants would be the best bargain. If I weren't on a budget, I'd go hog wild and get the Zipperback Full Suit. Even for well over $300, if it means the difference between winning and losing, making a cut or missing a cut, it's cheap in the long run. If you're a young swimmer, just check out the cost of college. If you're a Masters swimmer, just check out the cost of buying your own trophies to pretend you won a meet to your friends at work.

LONG story short, you have to make your own decisions, but I do think these suits will not only help you swim faster, but also will make you MORE aware of what you're doing in the water. They also reduce the friction and resistance of the water. Be careful to talk to your suit rep about sizing. I think I got pretty lucky with mine. I still went a size tighter than I wear in jeans, and two sizes down from my standard drag suit. This didn't seem to be a problem at all. I wouldn't go much smaller, as that could have been the reason I felt restriction in fly, and it could also cause me to sing in a higher voice in the streamline position on ANY stroke. Chose wisely, and I hope this helped.

Thanks to TYR for getting me the suits to try at a good price, and, without a doubt, I highly recommend these products.




Responses

Responded Feb 17, 2006 11:51AM

As you know, I AM Mr. Sceince. I have been dealing with the "issue" of these suits since they first came on the market. I have never been one to believe what the manufacturer tells me, nor am I one to believe marketing hype. I need data - scientific - provable, repeatable and confirmable data. So over the years, I have collected just that. The bottom line from the science point of view is that it's pretty much all the Placebo effect, but not entirely. In short - the suits do very little and do not justify the costs.

In a previous job I had an opprotunity to actually speak with a manufacturer of some of the material from Monsanto. He told me point blank that the material was never designed to make you swim faster and frankly, it wont - it's all marketing hype. And that was from the guy who helped design the material!

Another thing that many people don't consider is the age of the swimmer. Even if you do buy into the marketing hype, Many age group swimmers will not get any benefit from the suits. A ten year old is not going to benifit as much from muscle compression or reduced drag (they don't have much hair as it is). So spending money on a full body suit for your eight year old, may be going over board in any case.

But I will not speak my opinion anylonger, I will now present you with actual, REAL, scientific data that I have gathered over the years - and keep in mind that I gathered it hoping to prove the suits work - what I found was almost anything but that. Since many are long, I will make seperate posts.

Always a fan and a friend,

Coach Kurt Schallitz

Responded Feb 17, 2006 11:55AM

LOL - and wouldn't you know it - my blog server just went down... well I put in a trouble shooting request... as soon as it is up, I'll post some articles from scientific journals.

Coack Kurt

Responded Feb 17, 2006 12:27PM

Hey Kurt, don't forget, as I said, even from a "placebo" or psychological impact, better is better, and I'd take it. Science or not, I felt good in these suits, feeling good makes me go faster. Pretty simple. :) Also, just post links to the scientific stuff, that way this won't get too long. Thanks.

Responded Feb 17, 2006 01:21PM

Interesting article, but being both a cheap-skate and also having low asperations I don't think I could ever justify spending anywhere near that much on a suite.

That said this week I wore a pair of "drag" shorts for the first time in a *long* period. And they don't make me go much slower! I guess that says more for my technique than anything else...:)

But it brings up an interesting point in that whilst technology can improve things here there is surely a cut off point below which certain technological improvments (in this case swim suites) are an excessive waste of money.

I know a golfing friend of mine who religiously buys the best/most expensive kit he can find *every* year - he doesn't play any better for it because his technique is so poor. But then he's happy - so may be that's something else to consider!

Responded Feb 17, 2006 01:22PM

Oh I TOTALLY AGREE - any improvement whether Placebo or not is worth it - the only thing I wanted to point out is the cost you are paying for that. When I have presented the studies to my swimmers we now see a sort of reverse placebo at meets. We just assume that the kid in the body suit is going to go slower than anybody and put sort of a reverse psychology on it.

Oddly - if you actually study the meet results (and of course I do - yes, I AM a geek!) there is actually a reverse corellation. The more expensive the suit, the worse they do. I have no explanation for this other than to suggest that perhaps some (certainly not all) swimmers are reling on the suit to be fast rather than their technique.

The stinking server is still down, so I can't get you any links, but yes, I will post links to the longer stuff and perhaps post some of the abstracts along with the link for more info.

I'm all for things that make you go fast! I just don't want parents and kids to get ripped off. I think you made some pretty darn good points in your article, especially when you say that it comes down to your personal choice and what you personally feel the suits do for you.

Thanks for your quick feedback!

Coach Kurt

Responded Feb 17, 2006 01:27PM

Here is an abstract - you can go to scholar.google.com and find the actual link if you are interested.

National Library of Medicine - New Fast Skin Doesn't Work
Posted: 04 May 2005 09:18 AM
Effect of a Fast-skin 'body' suit on drag during front crawl swimming.

Toussaint HM, Truijens M, Elzinga MJ, van de Ven A, de Best H, Snabel B, de Groot G.

Institute for Fundamental and Clinical Human Movement Science, Faculty of Human Movement Science, Vrije Universiteit, The Netherlands.

The effect on drag of a Speedo Fast-skin suit compared to a conventional suit was studied in 13 subjects (6 males, 7 females) swimming at different velocities between 1.0 and 2.0 m.s-1. The active drag force was directly measured during front crawl swimming using a system of underwater push-off pads instrumented with a force transducer (MAD system). For a range of swimming speeds (1.1, 1.3, 1.5 and 1.7 m.s-1), drag values were estimated. On a group level, a statistically non-significant drag reduction effect of 2% was observed for the Fast-skin suit (p = 0.31). Therefore, the 7.5% reduction in drag claimed by the swimwear manufacturer was not corroborated.

Publication Types:
Evaluation Studies

MeSH Terms:
Adolescent
Adult
Analysis of Variance
Clothing*
Comparative Study
Female
Friction
Humans
Male
Sex Factors
Sports Equipment*
Swimming/physiology*

PMID: 14658132 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Coach Kurt

Responded Feb 17, 2006 01:28PM

The Best and most encouraging news I could find for those still hung up in believing that body suits will improve your time comes from a similar study and it's conclusion is essentially that MAYBE you could get a reduction IF the suits were modified slightly.

Effect of swim suit design on passive drag.

Mollendorf JC, Termin AC 2nd, Oppenheim E, Pendergast DR.

Center for Research and Education in Special Environments, University at Buffalo, Buffalo, NY, USA. molendrf@buffalo.edu

INTRODUCTION: The drag (D) of seven (7) male swimmers wearing five (5) swimsuits was investigated. METHODS: The drag was measured during passive surface tows at speeds from 0.2 up to 2.2 m x s and during starts and push-offs. The swimsuits varied in body coverage from shoulder-to-ankle (SA), shoulder-to-knee (SK), waist-to-ankle (WA) and waist-to-knee (WK) and briefs (CS). RESULTS: Differences in total drag among the suits were small, but significant. In terms of least drag at 2.2 m x s, the swimsuits ranked: SK, SA, WA, WK and CS. The drag was decomposed into its pressure drag (DP), skin friction drag (DSF) and wave drag (DW) components using nonlinear regression and classical formulations for each drag component. The transition-to-turbulence Reynolds number and decreasing frontal area with speed were taken into account. The transition-to-turbulence Reynolds number location was found to be very close to the swimmers' "leading edge," i.e. the head. Flow was neither completely laminar, nor completely turbulent; but rather, it was transitional over most of the body. The DP contributed the most to drag at low speeds (<1.0 m x s) and DW the least at all speeds. DSF contributed the most at higher speeds for SA and SK suits, whereas DP and DW were reduced compared with the other suits. CONCLUSION: The decomposition of swimmer drag into DSF, DP and DW suggests that increasing DSF on the upper-body of a swimmer reduces DP and DW by tripping the boundary layer and attaching the flow to the body from the shoulder to the knees. It is possible that body suits that cover the torso and legs may reduce drag and improve performance of swimmers.

Again you can use scholar.google.com for the complete study, but you may have to pay for it.

Responded Feb 17, 2006 01:29PM

Similarly this study LOOKS really good, but doesn't support that a body suit reduces drag, nor does it offer any accounting for the benefit... so let me take a stab at it... Body suits increase bouancy. When the body has increased bouancy it becomes properly balanced, meaning the hips come up and the head goes down. In this position the body has less drag, but also flows through the water more easly and thus produces greater distance per stroke. We accomplish this without the body suits by simply teaching our swimmers how to properly balance on the water. They get the exact same (actually greater) increases in distance perstroke and glides over "regular" swimmers who's coaches do not practice proper body balance... so if your coach doesn't teach balance then here's a study to encourage you. Of course you would still go just as fast (and many studies indicate you'd go faster) without a body suit if you just learn proper technique...

Responded Feb 17, 2006 01:29PM

here is the study:

Effect of swimming suit design on the energy demands of swimming.

Starling RD, Costill DL, Trappe TA, Jozsi AC, Trappe SW, Goodpaster BH.

Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, IN 47306, USA.

Eight competitive male swimmers completed a standardized 365.8 m (400 yd) freestyle swimming trial at a fixed pace (approximately 90% of maximal effort) while wearing a torso swim suit (TOR) or a standard racing suit (STD). Oxygen uptake (VO2), blood lactate, heart rate (HR), and distance per stroke (DPS) measurements were obtained. In addition, a video-computer system was used to collect velocity data during a prone underwater glide following a maximal leg push-off from the side of the pool while wearing the TOR and STD suits. These data were used to calculate the total distance covered during the glides. VO2 (3.76 +/- 0.16 vs 3.92 +/- 0.18 l.min-1) and lactate (8.08 +/- 0.53 vs, 9.66 +/- 0.66 mM) were significantly (P < 0.05) lower during the TOR trial than the STD trial. HR was not different (P > 0.05) between the TOR (170.1 +/- 5.1 b.min-1) and STD (173.5 +/- 5.7 b.min-1) trials. DPS was significantly greater during the TOR (2.70 +/- 0.066 m.stroke-1) versus STD (2.58 +/- 0.054 m.stroke-1) trial. A significantly greater total distance was covered during the prone glide while wearing the TOR (2.05 +/- 0.067 m) compared to the STD (2.00 +/- 0.080 m) suit. These findings demonstrate that a specially designed torso suit reduces the energy demand of swimming compared to a standard racing suit which may be due to a reduction in body drag.

You can get the full article at medline by accessing this reference:

PMID: 7564977 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Responded Feb 17, 2006 01:30PM

to save this thread from getting too long, if you would like more studies, please email me. I have about ten more.

Coach Kurt

Responded Feb 17, 2006 02:11PM

UGHHHHHHHHHHHH... too late on making the thread too long... my eyes are already glazing over. But this last study states that they ARE better... you're simply claiming that better coaching results in the same thing. What about better coaching AND better equipment? Wouldn't that ultimately be the best?

I don't think we can sit here and claim that other coaches aren't doing what's right just cause we may not agree with what they're doing.

Your quote of "Of course you would still go just as fast (and many studies indicate you'd go faster) without a body suit if you just learn proper technique..." sounds like there are only a few people who know what proper technique is, and if someone's coach isn't teaching what you (or i) think, then they're simply wrong. I don't buy this at all. Each coach needs to coach each swimmer as an individual, and in that, the experimentation, manipulation, and application of certain techniques that work for THAT swimmer may not be right for others, and may not follow "trends" in swimming.

Now PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE... just links Kurt... Thanks.

Responded Feb 17, 2006 02:23PM

sorry...

but ya - for the last study, you should read the whole article. I just posted the abstract. I'm not going to get into a debate. I think you have formed an opinion as have I. That's why I tried to present both sidies in the science articles and let them speak for themselves.

Responded Feb 17, 2006 02:41PM

Please... whatever you do... DON'T post the whole article... lol... and of course I've formed an opinion... I like them... they feel good... I swim fast... me like. :)

Responded Feb 17, 2006 03:44PM

that maybe the best reasoning for wearing one of these suits that i have ever heard!

Responded Feb 18, 2006 09:42AM

It seems as if that your testing helped us all Glenn. Thats great. I guess I should try out more suits more often. Thanks so much Glenn.

Eric R. Culver

Responded Feb 19, 2006 04:47AM

So after a long hiatus, I will post something again here, and if it is just to make this thread even longer :)

this is just to report my experience with the 'new' suits, and it is from way back when I was still swimming more...

I had only an Arena jammer for comparison with the then usual competition briefs, one of the black ones (more or less difficult to get in the US, I believe). I compared those at training speeds in a 50m shortcourse pool. And certainly there was no placebo effect wearing the jammer, as I wanted them not to be faster. I was convinced of the fact the suits certainly do not reduce resistance compared to shaved skin. And I am still sure of that, an the posting of coach Kurt concerning the fabric manufacturer underlines this.

However, againgt my certain believe, I went between 1 1/2 and 2 seconds faster in a 50 at training speed using the jammer (I repeatedly put it on an off, and the effect was always the same). I used training speed in order not to have the fatigue factor in there, and I did not alter the number of underwater kicks. So, when it is not the resistance, why are you going faster? Well, easy to deduce, the first thing I recognized when jumping in was, that my legs were much higher in the water. Which was repeatedly the case. So the suit creates lift, whicht is technically forbidden by FINA rules. And it does this by binding some air to the surface of the suit, which is clearly visible with the black Arena suits: they get a silver shine in the water when binding some air to the surface. The same is true for the Speedo Fastskin, to some degree.

The same is the case for the Speedo fabric, I do not at all believe there is anything to the so called 'sharkskin' structure of the fabric. You cannot imitate this so easily... And real sharkskin looks pretty different to me. And why do Arena and Adidas suits work, when there is no comparable structure to the surface of the suit?

A little later, I also tried the TYR long pants which were on the market then, the blue predecessors of the one Glenn tested. Those were made of ordinary fabric used for the usual training briefs, which do not bind any air. And the effect was nothing near to the much shorter Arena jammers.

Responded Feb 19, 2006 04:47AM

At race speed, the time difference is obviously much less, but the lift effect will still be there help. Obviously, the manufacturers will not state this, as this effect is forbidden by official rules, and they state the reduced friction...

There are reports from the speedo suits that they lose the ability to store air in longer races, which may be due to the structured surface of the suits. The new blue Arena Fastskin similarly seem to be less effective...

There were older Adidas full body suits made of conventional fabric, which were almost never worn in competition, because they did not have the lift effect (those are different from the suits Thorpe uses, those are only available to him, as far as I know...) The german national team recently switched from Arena to Adidas, it Sometimes I get the feeling that even the manufacturers do not really understand why the suits work or not...

Yet still, people swam fast in every one of the suits mentioned.

But I miss the old times :) when it was still only you in the water, and not you and the suit...

I liked that a lot more.

And I don't like the wrong reasoning of the manufacturers, just to seemingly obey the rules (or to save FINAs face, as they are hugely sponsored by Speedo, and Speedo wanted the suits in the market to 'create new possibilities' (read: to earn more money)).

Responded Feb 28, 2006 01:05AM

Glenn my friend....

I loved the enthusiasm and creativity of your "research project". You provided a disclaimer by admitting being a fan of TYR's Olympic swimming founders, yet in light of the marketing influence by swimsuit manufacturers, I think this topic is in need of more real science. At the risk of sounding like an aging skeptic, I refer you and readers to the following website that offers more communication from scientists investigating bodysuits. [http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swimming/bodysuit...]

I just returned from Bloomington, IN where I watched Indiana restore Doc Counsilman's winning tradition, capturing the Big Ten championship after 21 years. While there, I also attended the ribbon cutting ceremony (performed by Doc's widow, Marge) at the dedication for the Counsilman Center for the Science of Swimming, with goals in part, to carry on Doc's intellectual curiosity and application of the scientific method (that led to so many significant contributions) to provide "unaffiliated independent perspectives on training techniques and swimming-related equipment that is based on information obtained solely from objective testing and scientific measurements, without the influence of restrictive corporate support". Its director, Joel Stager, PhD, has previously presented research on "bodysuits", evaluating their "effect" on Olympic Trial performance, compared to predicted performances without "bodysuits" based on the progression of swimming times over the prior 25 years. No general beneficial effect was identified.

Glenn, I took your "mini-research project" on bodysuits in the fun spirit in which you intended, but I couldn't resist offering caution from jumping on the marketing bandwagon for an expensive product that could stand more unbias evaluation AND to put in a plug for the Counsilman Center, focusing on independent and well applied science to further the sport of swimming.

You know me best as a friend and prior competitive swimmer. As physician and medical educator, I am responsible for instructing resident physicians in assessing scientific studies to remain "evidenced-based" in their medical thinking. Whether well constructed research in swimming will eventually support the use of these suits or not, I'm afraid the "marketing cat" is already out of the bag on this issue.
Your friend always!

MS

Responded Mar 03, 2006 03:12PM

I realize that I am late getting in on this discussion, sorry Glenn, but I can't sound off on every subject. As a tech company in the swim business we have been watching, listening and arguing about this subject since we first opened our doors.

Science aside, let's not regard "marketing" as a bad word. Speedo, TYR and all suit companies making these claims are in the business of making money. Without their money, Michael Phelps would be working at Taco Bell between swim meets.

Responded Mar 03, 2006 04:14PM

Man... with all these marketing dollars being thrown around, you'd think I'd be smart enough to have CHARGED TYR for this article.

Anyway, the intent, was simply this... if the suits are out there, people will buy them. That, we can not change. If they are worth it, is a totally different question. Personally, I lovea them for the fact that I look SO much sleaker. That's also... like the VISA commercial says... PRICELESS. :)

Thanks for all the input. Glad it stirred things up a bit.

Responded Mar 03, 2006 11:27PM

Happy to stir it up a bit....:)
Quick clarification may be in order.......
1) I'm all for "marketing"...IF its a valid cause. If it's a valid cause, I agree with Zura Dog that marketing is not a bad word.
2) I'm VERY thankful for corporate support of swimming!
3) I'm a HUGE supporter of science and evidenced-based information. Even if science can prove that these swim suits are better "psychologically" but not necessarily physically, I would be their biggest supporter for the sake of swimming!!! But it still should be tested!
4) WOW!!!!!........As a former accomplished and successful national level swimmer, AND with all due respect to "Zura Dog", I understand what he (she) is trying to say, however,to really believe that Michael Phelps or other great swimmers would be "working at Taco Bell between swim meets" if it weren't for swim suit companies like Speedo and TYR, has got to be one of the most shortsighted, arrogant, disrespectful (of Michael Phelps), and inaccurate comments I've ever heard!!! I think I'll just let that one slip by....

Responded Mar 15, 2006 04:39PM

I take no offense at your concerns about my shortsighted, arrogant, disrespectful and innaccurate comments.

But I am curious to your thoughts about how any swimmer, post college (or turning pro, like Phelps) would support themselves and continue swimming without corporate sponsorship? Who pays for their suits, their travel, their hotels, their meals, their entry fees? Ask Jager and Biondi why they pioneered the concept of professional swimming? How did Dara Torres come back at 33? Why did Spitz get a job and quit swimming in the fall of 72? The corporate support or lack of it.

Responded Mar 15, 2006 05:23PM

Hey ZD. I'll sponsor you when you're ready for your comeback. :) I know I can at least get you a deal on some kickboards. OH WAIT. You don't HAVE to make a comeback... you're now the DAD of a State Champion. EVEN BETTER!

Responded Mar 17, 2006 12:11PM

You are so kind. There is no suit avaiable to "compress" me into a comeback. It would be just plain ugly.


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