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Print this entryEric Shanteau Back - Breast Crossover Turn
On the road shooting more video, we got Eric Shanteau to do a quick demonstration of a back-to-breast crossover turn. Much more to come on his upcoming DVD.
Responses
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wow |
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Oh sheez - what great timing Glenn! I was just begging one of our age-group coaches to help me with this.
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Great video cos this turn is my weakest at IM |
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OK Glenn... Notes from the USMS Forum: "Looks like he pushes off on his back (or certainly past vertical) before quickly rotating over." "Dead-on... at the point his feet plant and he begins the push he is on his back (check :47 in video). If this view were available to an official, the swimmer should be DQ'd. The rule requires he be "on the breast." and he is on neither until he rotates to same, away from the wall."
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Would love to see a series breaking down how to do/coach this. Hopefully it will be a part of the DVD? |
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We specifically shot this turn from an officials view point at race speed. Impossible to call. |
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Forgot to add: another vague rule, like the initiation of the dolphin kick during the underwater pull, that simply complicates officiating with no point. Probably shouldn't have said vague as the rule is specific. What I meant was a rule that can't accurately be called so why have it. |
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As an official I must say that he is on the very edge of a DQ. He almost leaves completelly his position on his back before he touches the wall!!!!....With the turn on his chest I do'nt see anything wrong. But het is very good....exceptional....!!!!... |
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Eric and I looked at this together last night. The time :47 mentioned above you can't tell if Eric's feet have left the wall, they appear to still be extending. As much as we could advance it, by the time we KNOW his feet are off the wall, he is at 90. Also, since the feet can't be SEEN leaving the wall, if an official saw this video, they actually could NOT DQ Eric as there is NOT concrete evidence that he isn't on his side when the feet leave. Any official will tell you, when there's a question, always lean to the side of the athlete. Obviously more to come on this, but this is a legal turn. :) |
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Jules, this is I think an european thing. I know a German international swimmer, who got disqlified at the Winter Nationals in Germany for that turn, with the same "reason". He does this turn at international swim meets all the time and he never got DQed there. Weird hm?
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He Sprinter.....My Dad is the official....I find this a very cool turn.....So does my Dad...uh...the coach...uh...the Dad......(confusing sometimes eh). If he did'nt rotate as much the turn would be undisqualifiable(....excuse my french).....Think I'm going to get ready to learn this as well.....hahahha.....
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What is the key to keep momentum throughout the turn, and not feeling stuck to the wall when the hand touches it being on back ? Is a swimmer turning on his chest to perform a flip turn DQed? |
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Wow. He makes it look great. So smooth. His arm never comes out of the water. This will really help me. I always take my arm out of the water which is not a direct shot to the wall. Thank you! |
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regardless, he's super hot! hahaha! seriously, though. |
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Glenn, do you have any thoughts regarding how to teach this turn? I've tried in the past showing video to swimmers but made the mistake of not having specific keys and steps to learn it. There doesn't seem to be much out there, even though this is the turn used by most of the great swimmers. It's hard to get kids to understand what's going on here unless they are the most athletic swimmers. I agree on the officiating point. Rules that require interpretation, are vague, or can be called a number of ways are not helpful. In addition, I don't like rules that are in place even though the violation doesn't aid the swimmer in any way. For instance, the non-continuous back turn. There is nothing to be gained by gliding into the wall (that I can see), so why have the rule? Is it merely to keep backstroke on the back, and not allowing anyone to just kick on their stomach the whole way (again, not an advantage)? |
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Oh, and to further my point, what is to be gained by pushing off on the back and twisting on this turn anyway? |
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Glenn, I would not normally take issue with you but I believe if you stop the video at :47 it shows clearly that he is off his back at the finish of the backstroke leg (looking at the angle of the shoulders and hips). However, I do accept that the camera angle may accentuate this and the judges have to give the benefit of the doubt. 'However', I would not feel comfortable coaching the turn in this fashion as I feel it pushes the boundaries of the rules too far. Just my opinion I hasten to add.
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Sandeno does it even more obvious. She doesn't get DQed for it either. |
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I think that this is what swimming is about,...surching for ways to be faster, smarter,....we've lost thet suits....let's kick ass an other way..I love to see swimmers come out of the water, asking me for there time knowing that they have been on the adge of rules....so great....gives me hope and inspiration....The Dad P.S....do not tell Juliette this...hahahaha........ |
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HOOK 'EM 'nuff said ;) |
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I am sure there are more turns on this - I saw some swimmer doing like backward turn - I try it, and its bit awkward turn |
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As an ex-competitive swimmer and now official, I'm really glad I saw this.This turn would have really thrown me if I had first seen it as an official at a meet. As you said "the benefit of the doubt has to go to the swimmer", but I must say that had I seen that turn in competition for the first time and maybe while trying to watch other lanes, I would have had a lot of questions going on in my head. I've watched this several times over and it's still difficult for me to say- Therefore " the benefit has to go to the swimmer". |
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where can I get hold of the exact rules please? The FINA ones I suppose. |
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where can I get hold of the exact rules please? The FINA ones I suppose. |
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I would love to see a view from above - an official's view. The key is the swimmer must finish the backstroke on his back. If he is past vertical toward the chest when he touches, it is a DQ. If he leaves the wall past vertical to the back when he leaves the wall, it is a DQ. Very hard to call from the view provided. USA Swim Rules 101.6.3.B(2) Backstroke to Breaststroke — The swimmer must touch the wall while on the back. Once a legal touch has been made, the swimmer may turn in any manner but the shoulders must be at or past the vertical toward the breast when the swimmer leaves the wall and the prescribed breaststroke form must be attained prior to the first arm stroke. |
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Very clearly shown here... but you'll need to be a subscriber of the new site to see it:
Here's the trouble I have with the rule. What are the officials looking at? Are they looking at the shoulders, and if so, can they tell the exact moment the toes leave the wall? If they're looking at the toes, by the time their eyes move up to the shoulders, the swimmer is too far away from the wall and could have made an adjustment. Reality needs to come in to play when writing the rules, and this typically isn't the case. Officials can't watch both the feet, and the shoulders at the same time so unless the athlete is blatantly over rotated, the call can't be made. Especially with athletes like Eric, the turn happens SO quickly, and with the splash that's involved, the official standing over the lane will have a very difficult time making correct calls every time. My opinion on this... adjust like they have with the backstroke turn, and allow swimmers to turn like backstroke turns and come out on their stomach. Sure... times will get faster, but confusion about the turn disappears. It's like the rule about continuous motion going in to the wall on a backstroke turn. If the athlete stays on their stomach too long, they get DQ'd. Reality shows that being on your stomach too long is already punishment enough based on your losing momentum. Why DQ the kid for doing something that slows them down? It's just silly. Kinda like a bank charging fees when you bounce a check. Didn't you already prove you don't have any money in the account? What's the point of taking more of what you don't already have. |
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