Freestyle - The Deep Catch

Great video once again!! As you said it is about straight arm IN the water. Be careful if you try this, you might also have a straight arm recovery, which will probably make your entry a little bit, or a lot, splashy and potentially damage your shoulder (too much pressure on a fully extended shoulder is not good, using paddles makes it even worth!).

This article stated the study only compared a sculling pull to a deep-catch stroke. We have known the Councilman S-shaped pull is obsolete science so there is nothing much new here. What it did not compare, at least in the news report of the study, is the EVF pull to the straight arm pull. Why is everyone assuming that the fastest pull is a straight arm, deep catch when that wasn't the study? Am I missing some information?

I find this very interesting, but confusing. I think I know what the sculling stroke is -- Kara Lynn Joyce, because she is mentioned in the NYT article. Of course, it seems to work very well for her. I can't figure out who the deep catch swimmers are or what a deep catch stroke is. I have been told that Popov had a deep catch, although Popov clearly has a high elbow. Cielo has a high elbow too (which is confusing because Brett Hawk describes him as having a straight arm). The guy in this video seems to have very straight arms with not much of a high elbow. Anthony Ervin and Gary hall had high elbow pulls, but with an "extended lever" (as Mike Bottom explains it). Bousquet (another Auburn swimmer) seemed to have a really straight arm. Does anyone have a copy of the full-length study? I wish I knew who they were referring modelling as deep catch swimmers.

Let me put it this way "c". And sorry if you think this is a bait and switch. The swimmer in the video is currently the best swimmer to demonstrate that I have access to. He's a 16 year old who split 50.57 this past weekend on a relay for a long course 100 free. You're right... even HE can't do it perfectly. The only swimmer we currently have on the team that can swim with the straight arm technique is Lia Neal... who I couldn't film this week... because she's in London preparing for the 400 free relay. Again... Olympian.

Again... the goal was to illustrate this is very tough to do. I didn't do the study. Barbara and I received many emails regarding this study and wanted to make sure people understood that it may not be for them.

Also, when you say "elliptical pull pattern"... and the word ALL... are you saying these athletes use an S pattern, or use more of a bent arm pull? Either way... whenever you use the word ALL in a description, you've already disqualified yourself... there is no ALL in swimming. Just an FYI.

Here are some clips you should look at that may explain things a bit better.

Roland Schoeman (World Record Holder 50 SCM free)
https://www.goswimtv.com/lessons/866-frees...

Jason Lezak (fastest split in history 46.0 100 LCM free)
https://www.goswimtv.com/lessons/975-lezak...

Barry Murphy (19.1 50 yards - Irish Record Holder 50 free)
https://www.goswimtv.com/lessons/1219-free...

Anyway... there are plenty more nice illustrations of a direct pull on the subscription site. If you just want the free content, then you'll have to understand that I'll do my best to find an athlete who demonstrates an example as best as I can.

How's Burundi by the way? You may be the first person we've had on the site from there. :)

Well.............looked at the video in the study quoted by yourself................woman has a nice bent elbow. However, as you contend in your response to my previous posting...I have disqualifed myself. Now, let me see, are you referring to a totally straight arm? A somewhat bent arm? If so, how much is desirable....and fact that you state that many will find this straight arm technique too difficult or not for them.......is that a caveat for its garbish? <<<Disqualifed myself, again!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll further do my best to help you out.

The swimmer in the video in the article swims for Johns Hopkins. While George Kennedy, the coach at JH, is a very good friend and good coach, he'll be the first to tell you... his swimmers are also not... Olympians.

The female used in that video would also find it very difficult to use this technique.

If you want to see someone doing it properly, I cited three videos, and especially the Barry Murphy video, that will show you what you're missing. The subscription site holds the answers to your questions. Thanks for playing... see you in London?

What I love about this, is that you're not capable of understanding anything without the perfect visual. Is my logic flawed because you don't understand it, or because the visual isn't perfect? As I stated before, which you seem to require multiple reminders... I didn't write their article, I didn't prepare the video for their article, and while their science is valid, it's not meant for everyone. Your accusing tone that I've somehow mislead people with this, and generalization that ALL swimmers swim the way you understand it... combined with the fact that you're NOT from Burundi, are hiding behind a letter, rather than a full name, and my own understanding that you and I are indeed connected on LinkedIn (or were) shows me that you're posting as a coward... and I don't like cowards.

Be a man, write me an email, and I'll turn your account back on. Until then... I'm going to finish packing for London.

I love having debates about technique with men and women... not people who are too afraid to stand behind their beliefs to the point they have to create false persona's to create a single post. After 10 years of Barbara and I bearing our hearts and souls for anyone to pick apart... bravely... if you want to call me out on a technique... maybe I'll learn something new.

For the rest of you... sorry about this. I just don't like internet bullies or "internet brave". It's one of my pet peeves and I won't be nice when people who aren't brave enough to post their full names and call me out on things. After 400+ plus drills... I know I've posted many incorrect things... it's called learning. I admit I don't know it all... but I can tell you... I know more than "c".

In the immortal words of my friend Craig Beardsley. Don't mistake my kindness for weakness.

Have a good day everyone... I feel better. That was fun. Off to London!

Interesting thread here. If you look at underwater video of Ian Thorpe, one of the greatest freestylers ever, he definitely does NOT have a straight arm pull. In fact his arms bend and forearms go vertical so far forward as to seem unnatural. And the late Doc Counsilman certainly thought that straight arms underwater were inefficient. But then who could explain Janet Evans and her unconventional stroke?

Great relay swim by Lia. Congrats to you and her Glenn.

Jacki Hirsty, I think you are dead on. He supposedly covered Paddle Stroke vs. Propeller Stroke, but the Paddle Stroke has two main types, the Counsilman S-Pull, and the I-Pull popularized by Ian Thorpe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=batQnvqsZy4

The professor only compares the S-Pull Paddle Stroke to the Propeller Stroke. In that comparison, we can determine that the S-Pull is not as efficient at thrust as Propeller Pull, but it's also not as efficient at lift. Seeing as the S-Pull was designed to maximize lift, this study pretty much obliterates theories on the continued utility of S-Pull. What this study does not, so far as I can tell, do is match up Propeller Stroke to the I-Pull Paddle Stroke. If that comparison is made, I think we will find that the I-Pull will still come out dominant, not for thrust or just for a more efficient drag-induced lift (which I think it might have), but primarily for the speed of the pull as it pulls in the laminar flow area around the body and reaches the recovery position. The Propeller Pull will necessarily be pulling through a turbulence zone, making for a slower pull. At least that's my thinking, though I'm not a trained biomechanical physicist.

Reverting back to straight arm underwater pull for sprinting. My 25M times show several tenths improvement.

Steve, what was your old strategy?

Hmm... well, the idea with EVF/the I-Pull is that you are not just digging at the water and hoping for the best but actually contemplating the best strategy for each part of your arm. Obviously, pulling with more, rather than less, of your arm means greater force, but that force needs to be directed appropriately for maximum forward motion. Directionality in the pool is the opposite of your pull direction, so a pull to your feet propels you forward. If you do a straight-arm Propeller Pull, then your arm necessarily pulls in a semicircle from the access point, initially pulling toward the floor, then behind, and then up. With EVF/I-Pull, the elbow is incorporated as a control to help ensure that as much of the pull as is possible is incorporated into the pull to the feet. While your upper arm follows the semicircular path from the axis, the forearm and hand, working in locked unison, pull the water in a uniform flow that parallels and exists within the laminar flow layers of the streamlining. So, while the article demonstrates the sweep out associated with the S-Pull is inefficient, comparative to the Propeller Pull, I would still bet money that the EVF/I-Pull form of the Paddle Pull is still the most efficient means of propulsion of the three. So, I'm not sure how your EVF Freestyle looked, but, perhaps, it missed the mark a bit? You mention elbows pointing forward, and that sounds a bit strained. Normally, because of the motion of the paddle (hand and forearm combination), the elbows remain high throughout the pull, but not, to my knowledge, forward any further than in line with the shoulders. And, at that, the elbows only remain that far forward until your hands pass your shoulders and your elbows need to progress further down your body for the follow through of the paddle. Now, if you dig too deep with your arms, not only are you breaking through the streamline flow layers, but you're also trudging your pull through the turbulence zone outside the laminar flow. So, I'd be careful as to exactly how far I'd stretch that elbow out during your pull, if I were you.

Now, as to your pull during these strokes, I notice that your fingers are apart, and your thumb is quite far from the rest of your hand. Generally, you want to shape your hand like a scoop foil to maximize the amount of water you displace and to keep your hand in hydrodynamic form. So, you should work on keeping those fingers and thumb together more. As to your inquiry into the fingers apart pull, yes, you can get more pull with your fingers just slightly apart. The trick here is that they have to be very slightly apart. When you pull with fingers apart, there is a flow, a current, created to the left and right of each finger as your hand pulls through. These flows flow away from the finger from which they were created. So, if your fingers are close enough together, the flow from one finger will intersect with the flow of its neighbor finger, creating a webbing effect that itself helps catch water. However, if your fingers are too far apart, that intersection won't occur between your fingers and thus will not be useful to you and will not be working as a foil. Keeping your fingers just distant enough is very difficult, as the force of the flows intersecting wants to push your fingers further apart, so it requires great personal discipline to master.

You are absolutely right, and they come back with a vengeance when you are tired.

Flexibility will always be an advantage in the sport of swimming, so a daily routine would be a benefit in increasing extension out front.